/longest parenthetical ever.

And yes, most Wiccans will say they’re pagan – paganism is an umbrella term. So Wiccans are pagans but pagans are not necessarily Wiccans.

As far as G goes – like I said, if I’m talking to someone who doesn’t know the terms I’m using and such, I’ll say “I’m a pagan” instead of “I’m a heathen” or “I’m Asatru”, because #1 – I’d rather identify as heathen than Asatru, even though Asatru is the more…defined? acceptable? I don’t even know! word, and #2 – people who may know what pagan means don’t know what heathen means (in a pagan context). Although there are still people who have no idea what pagan means, Matt mentioned something about the McCollum case to his father only to have him say “Pagans? Do they like…worship idols?”.

Anyways, I think we are mostly in agreement here and probably just crossing wires?

“there’s something to be said about that quote, which is… Neil Gaiman’s audience probably is not that person. I doubt than an uneducated reader would pick up or read his book, to be honest. It seems like a stronger case to be made for something designed for mass consumption– like Supernatural.”

I don’t know. That’s a good point, but I’ve met people before who had college degrees but didn’t know that people still worshiped “pagan gods”. Heck, my grandpa’s an engineer and he doesn’t know that. I’ve met totally intelligent and otherwise educated people (not necessarily college educated, but well read), that had just never met a pagan and so didn’t know. I was using “uneducated” in the concept of uneducated about religions other than Christianity, Judaism, and Islam – which is *a lot* of people. I mean, most people in bigger cities are aware of other religions, but there are plenty of people in small towns or in the midwest who’ve never met someone who wasn’t either those three religions or a Hindu, and the idea of someone worshiping Odin or Athena is totally alien to them. I’m not saying these people are bigots who would be totally opposed to the idea – just that they might not have been exposed to it as a “real thing”, and if people keep using the “old forgotten gods” trope without acknowledging that these gods *aren’t* forgotten, it just cements the idea that they are. Granted, readers of Gaiman tend to be in one subculture or another, or maybe just slightly weird , and I think they’ve got a higher chance than the “normal” population of knowing about paganism, but I’d be willing to bet there are readers of his that aren’t totally informed about modern paganism.

I am SO WORDY today. Eesh.

Oxford Dictionary defines a pagan as a person holding religious beliefs other than those of the main world religions

The American Heritage dictionary calls it:
1. An adherent of a polytheistic religion in antiquity, especially when viewed in contrast to an adherent of a monotheistic religion.
2. A Neopagan.
3. Offensive
a. One who has no religion.
b. An adherent of a religion other than Judaism, Christianity, or Islam.
4. A hedonist.

Wikipedia’s quick intro says–Paganism (from Latin paganus, meaning “country dweller”, “rustic”[1]) is a blanket term used to refer to various polytheistic, non-Abrahamic religious traditions. Its exact definition may vary. It is primarily used in a historical context, referring to Greco-Roman polytheism as well as the polytheistic traditions of Europe before Christianization. In a wider sense, extended to contemporary religions, it includes most of the Eastern religions, and the indigenous traditions of the Americas, Central Asia, Australia and Africa, as well as non-Abrahamic folk religion in general.

So even in contemporary, non-Christian uses, there are many modern religions that are consider Pagan, even if the worshippers don’t consider at as such. I don’t think its a matter of self-identification, because to be honest, I’m sure that there are a lot of “Pagan” religions that don’t self-identify as such. Unfortunately it’s rarely the minority viewpoint that identifies something as such– vaudun practitioners, Buddhists, Hindus, wiccans… probably don’t consider themselves pagan, but I’m sure than the modern American probably does to a certain degree. You’re from a small town, I’m from the Deep South, so you know that it’s an unfortunate truth. (Also, please note: G used to be a practicing Druid, praying to 2 Celtic goddesses, so I understand that marginalized religion standpoint. Trust me when I say it’s a lot harder to say to people, “My boyfriend is a Druid,” than it would have been to say, “He’s a pagan.”)

“(namely because it reinforces the idea in an uneducated reader that these deities *are* old and forgotten).”– there’s something to be said about that quote, which is… Neil Gaiman’s audience probably is not that person. I doubt than an uneducated reader would pick up or read his book, to be honest. It seems like a stronger case to be made for something designed for mass consumption– like Supernatural.
.-= Ashe Mischief´s last blog ..OMG Shoes: Dr. Martens =-.

As far as in the biblical sense, yeah, everyone who isn’t Christian is probably a pagan. (I am not the person to ask, as someone who went to church maybe 3 years of her life, but I think so.) I think that taking the Christian definition of it though is kind of silly – why let a group outside of your group define you? Since Poochie asked, I’m actually going to do a paganism 101 post and this will be covered in it, but I think one of the essential things to being pagan is to self identify as pagan. Which is why I said “non Christian” deities (or I tried to throughout, I may have slipped up once or twice) – because I don’t think most Hindus (or say, voudousants – sp?) identify as pagan and I don’t want to stick a label on them that they don’t agree with.

Pagan =/= Wiccan, for sure. People assuming that is actually one of my pet peeves, since I refer to myself as pagan when talking to people who won’t recognize the word “heathen”, but I am most DEFINITELY not Wiccan. I’m not even 100% sure if the waitress in the cafe calls herself pagan or Wiccan, but since Kyeli said Wiccan that was what I went with.

I don’t necessarily think any depiction of deities counts as “good” or “tolerant”, either. I think he kind of makes Odin out to be a total asshole in AG, (I’m the first person to admit that Odin is comfortable with morally gray, to use a phrase from Heroes, but I think the book was unfair…) and in Sandman he portrays Thor as…a really stupid drunk frat-boy type, to put it mildly. I would not call his depictions of my deities respectful, overall. I was planning on covering that later, and why I have issues with using the deities in an “old forgotten gods” way as well (namely because it reinforces the idea in an uneducated reader that these deities *are* old and forgotten).

Re: pre-settler/invader indigenous American deities, there’s actually one point in the book that specifically says the Native Americans didn’t have gods – I’ll quote it when I write that part.

And yes, I wanted to make this post longer too! But I didn’t want to make it too overwhelming since there’s several issues to be discussed. But I’ll get a paganism 101 post up before the next post in this series, so that we all know which definitions I’m using here.